See here for the start of the discussion.
For those that may join the conversation later, Godofcyanide and I are both from the United States.
I must admit, I had to look up some of the words you used. I would also guess that you composed your response in a text editing program; an action I am not reciprocating.
"99 Problems" was the only reference. The inspiration to sneak it in came to me as I was typing the others.
I am glad you wrote beyond the first sentence. Alone, it sounds like your are calling out religious people.
I think that is a really interesting point you brought up. The direction in which society appears to be heading is certainly 180 degrees compared to that depicted in Star Trek. However, as you also pointed out, the Start Trek timeline has a few more tragedies in store for us. As a college student myself, I unfortunately can confirm that most college-educated people still do not avoid the societal trend. Like many colleges, the one I attend takes pride in promoting social change (marriage equality, racial equality, sustainable living, etc.). However, I have found that most students don't critically consider their positions. Here is one example (that actually happened):
I was eating lunch with a group of friends at a dining hall. A fellow student came up to us and asked for our signatures. As if that wasn't explanation enough, she looked at us in an unusual manner when we asked what the document was. She then proceeded to explain that they (a student group) were trying to convince the university to divest from fossil fuel companies. She wanted our signatures for their petition. We then proceeded to ask what types of fossil fuels they wanted to divest from. She responded, "All of them?" At that point, she had already lost our signatures, but we wanted to investigate a bit further. We then asked what alternative investment plans the group proposed. I don't remember her exact response. It was something along the lines of, "That is not important. All that matters right now is getting the university to divest."
I could bring up more examples; some of which are excellent displays of hypocrisy. However, the topics are more politically volatile and I don't want to risk starting a blood bath on this wiki. Godofcyanide, I am sure you remember what it was like when there were witch hunts for cheaters.
I composed my response right in the Wikia box. I just have a good vocabulary. ;)
There is a segment of religious people that do fit that description, yes, but it's not all of them. However, America does have a disproportionate amount of them, which is why many Americans who are not them sometimes make the mistake of the overgeneralization you feared I might make.
In fairness to your fellow student, there is a chance she was chosen to hawk the petition for reasons other than her extensive knowledge on the subject. Not to sound callous... but how hot was she? ;)
Witch hunts for cheaters? Academically? The reality is that stuff like that still happens (ever see "Stand and Deliver"?)... and, sometimes, those witch hunts turn up cheating TEACHERS, which occurs more and more as standardized test scores are tied to school funding. I believe this happened recently in Atlanta.
The way I see it, she still chose to hawk the petition; it wasn't forced on her. That implies she had a reason. Based on what she was able to tell us, it certainly wasn't familiarity with the topic. That is all I meant by including that example.
To answer your potentially rhetorical question, not much more than the average female in college. As a side note, I have noticed that clothing choices get less modest with each incoming class. Some girls wear see-through shirts (without undershirts) and mini shorts in the depth of winter! It completely confounds me; especially with the push to move away from gender stereotypes. Perhaps colleges should start having dress codes.
I was referring to cheating in TFL.
People will always accuse others of cheating in online games. Hell, people accuse BladeRy of cheating when he scores lots of points in TVT. The difference is was that there were actual cheaters, and DeNA refused to do anything about them other than itsme, and her only crime was a single third-party purchase from a site advertised within the game itself. It took DeNA no time to ban her outright (and she was not only witch-hunted, she was harassed here and on FB), yet it took them months to ban people who were hacking the game code itself in order to gain significant advantages by buying things from the game at heavily discounted rates - which was worse for DeNA directly than what itsme did, and created a blatantly biased game environment for other players. DeNA was aware that something wasn't right, but their fear of reprisals from Google/Apple gave them cold feet. Hence why I went ballistic on them and quit the game for five months. Cheaters are cheaters, and you ban cheaters once you know they're cheating. Hell, Blizzard banned a lot of accounts from ALL their games when they did a check for botters in Hearthstone - two of my friends got banned in that. Fortunately for me, I wasn't running my bot at the time. ;)
My question about the petition girl wasn't rhetorical. But it's a psychological phenomenon that both men and women respond more favorably to an attractive female than they would any other type. Funny story from my college days: The Math club at my college was going to classes seeking members. As there was only one even moderately attractive female in the group, they sent her and a couple of the other ladies (nice women, but, well, quite heavy) out to talk to the classes. They were worried enough about their "cool quotient" that they enlisted me (who, while also overweight, had a mohawk at the time) to go with them to avoid the image of, "holy crap, it's the nerds!" despite the fact that I wasn't even in the Math club. (I was a math major though.) I got a free club shirt out of the deal. ;)
As far as the flimsy clothing, it is an American phenomenon that breasts are so overly sexualized, and there is a growing backlash against that (cf. public breastfeeding, NY's law allowing women to go topless on beaches). Funny we talk about this on the day I became aware of the #freethenipple movement on Twitter...
ok ok... i missed a lot over the easter break, but can i summarize?
you guys are saying that these days compared to 30-40 years ago, we have transitioned to a more I I I, Me Me Me type of society where people are less likely to be empathetic and are more likely focussed on self satisfaction or self centeredness... this all arrived from the khan white washing comment as to why we made the switch and thus why are preferences changing.
you guys are also saying that this goes against the portrayal of star trek in the future because the "ideological society" that is shown is where there they move away from the notion of the person and more for the society and community.
then someone is also saying that an example of this sort of "ignorance - represented by self centeredness and other similar behaviors" is that people (in the majority and most general sense) go against verifiable and well known notions and concepts just because they are "going with the flow". This is consistent with your example of the petition signatures. People are using information for change but only to suit their purposes and not necessarily properly exploring what is what and the right answers.
finally, this also speaks to the fact that we are (or can be) ignorant to accept the attractive message rather than the quality of the message. This is because Connie Chung and Lois Lane have always been and always will be hot and we need those swedish weather girls to take off their clothes while forecasting how wet its going to be in about 2 minutes.
is that a good summary of findings?
Godofcyanide wrote: People will always accuse others of cheating in online games. Hell, people accuse BladeRy of cheating when he scores lots of points in TVT. The difference is was that there were actual cheaters, and DeNA refused to do anything about them other than itsme, and her only crime was a single third-party purchase from a site advertised within the game itself. It took DeNA no time to ban her outright (and she was not only witch-hunted, she was harassed here and on FB), yet it took them months to ban people who were hacking the game code itself in order to gain significant advantages by buying things from the game at heavily discounted rates - which was worse for DeNA directly than what itsme did, and created a blatantly biased game environment for other players.
All that is true. What I was trying to get at was, in addition, the frequency and intensity of false accusations also increased during that period.
Almost.
The topic of the transition of societal norms came as a result of discussing how the new movies don't quite fit with the style of previous movies and series. It was not linked specifically to the white washing of Khan.
Yes; we are saying it goes against the societal values depicted in Star Trek.
The overall point of the comment regarding ignorance and the petition example was to highlight that society, in general terms, is moving away from critical thinking to a follow-the-crowd mentality.
I will never bring up Star Trek The Reboot 2: The Whitewash of Khan ever again.
I apologize for the philosophical discussion that it sparked...
I apologize for the philosophical discussion that it sparked...
But I think that's the whole point of Star Trek in the first place: to discuss societal philosophy. Why else would most of the other races have very dominant societal traits? (Klingons are warlike, Vulcans logical, Romulans passionate)...
I agree. The original timeline was written with a bunch of societal commentary built-in. That is something I feel the newer movies lack. Hence this discussion.
LOL.
I was talking the "whitewash" part.
And damn right, Roddenberry used a thin sheet to cover it back then, but the smart ones knew.
I WISH people got their shit straight and paid attention to Roddenberry's vision.
Unfortunately, we're more likely enroute to the Mad Max future than the Star Trek one. Whatever...as long as somebody errects the Thunderdome, I'm good...